Nedarim - Taam and Juice

Nedarim (6:7) | Yisrael Bankier | 8 months ago

The Mishnah (6:7) teaches that if one makes a neder from wine, they would be able to nonetheless enjoy cooked food that contains wine. The Ran explains that the intention when making the neder is against wine as it appears and not when it is mixed into anything else. If however the person made a neder against tasting a specific bottle of wine, and that wine was added to food, then the food would be assur. The Mishnah continues with a similar case. If one made a neder against grapes, he may still enjoy wine. If however, he made a neder not to taste specific grapes, then he would not be able to drink wine produced from them.

The Gemara (52b) notes that that are two changes to the details that expanded the scope of the neder. Firstly he added she'eini toem -- that he will not taste them. Secondly, he focused his neder on specific grapes -- elu. The Gemara asks which of these two differences changes the law.

The Tosfot Yom Tov explains that the Gemara concludes that if focusing the neder on specific grapes (ze or elu) then that would be enough to the change the law. In other words, the cooked food that contained the wine would be assur in the first case, as would the wine produced from the specific grapes in the second. This would be comparable to the case in the previous Mishnah, where if one made a neder against a specific piece of meat, even the juices would be prohibited. The Bartenura there explains that since the person focused the neder on a particular piece of meat, it makes that piece equivalent to any issur (like a neveilah) such that even the flavour is also prohibited.

It is not clear however if one only added she'eini toam whether it would extend the neder. One could either understand that the Mishnah includes both changes to teach that either term would make the wine assur. Alternatively, the Mishnah is teaching that even if one added she'eini toam, if they did not add the word elu, the wine would be mutar.

The Ran explains that the reason that one might think that eini toem alone is sufficient to make the wine assur is because since one unnecessarily added that he will not taste it, perhaps then it includes even the juice produced.

Note that there were two cases in the Mishnah. The first was a neder against wine and the concern was regarding the flavour (taam) that was added to the dish. In the second neder the concern was about the juice extracted (yotze). The Ran appears to focus the above discussion regarding these two terms, on the second case alone; whether the neder against the grapes also includes wine produced from them. In the first case that relates to one that makes a neder against tasting wine, the Ran explains that the cooked food is prohibited because the person would be able to taste it in the mixture.

The Lechem Mishnah (5:11) however notes that the Rambam only mentions the doubt regarding eini toem, by the case of the neder against grape and whether it applies to the wine that is extracted. He does not however mention it regarding the first case. The Lechem Mishnah explains that there is more of a reason to prohibit the juice extracted than the case of taam (flavour), because the juice is the object that was covered by the original neder albeit taking a different form.

The Ran as cited above, however appears to understand that the case of eini toam by taam was clearly assur. The Lechem Mishnah understands that the Ran's version of the Mishnah only had sheini toem in the first case with out the word ze. Assuming that were true, he is unsure why the Gemara could not resolve the question regarding the case of yotze from the case of taam. Consequently he asserts that our version that includes the word ze is correct.

The Rashash however explains that according to Ran it would be obvious that in the first case sheini toem alone is enough to make the mixture forbidden. He explains that the object that was made assur, the wine and not an extract, is what was added to the cooked food, and since its taste can be discerned, it should be prohibited. The question of the Gemara is then only regarding an extract of grapes and whether, since it is in a different form, is covered by eini toem. ¹

¹ See the Chatam Sofer who brings both opinions and concludes the logic could run in either directions, for a neder using the sheini toam, both the taam and yotze would be prohibited misafek.

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